Verzachten van FINEER

Leonardo

Nieuw lid
26 sep 2012
4
0
In Amerika heb ik gewerkt met Vineer Softener. Een waterige vloeistof die fineer verzacht. Hierdoor is het buigzamer en beter te verwerken in gebogen vormen.
Ik kan het in Nederland NERGENS vinden! Heeft iemand een tip? Ik heb Baptist en de Arnhemse Fijnhouthandel al geprobeerd (hadden er nog nooit van gehoord).

Alvast dank,

Leon
 

jaap

Moderator
9 mrt 2008
5.051
1.682
Terkaple
www.woodworking.nl
Zag het afgelopen zomer ook staan in de winkel, maar had te weinig bagagemogelijkheden. Hier een link waar je het kunt bestellen, en allerlei handige andere spullen voor het werken met vacuum en hieronder een beschrijving van de verschillende middelen. Het is op basis van glycol, dus misschien lukt het ook met antivries??

jaap



Even the highest grade veneers can have mild to moderate rippling. Crotch and stump veneer almost always arrive with a fair amount of rippling or bubbling. This is typically caused by areas where there is a high density of wood cells which expand and contract at a different rate than areas where the density of wood cells is less.

Veneers that have very slight "bubbling" can be glued to a panel without flattening. The key is to lightly mist the top side of the veneer with veneer softener after it has been placed on the freshly glued substrate. If you do spritz the veneer face, it's a good idea to mist the balance veneer as well (even if it is not bubbly).

The Quarter Trick
There's an old trick that I learned from a craftsman in Jarrettsville, Maryland for determining whether you need to flatten a veneer before you work with it in a vacuum press. You'll only need to do this trick once to learn when flattening is needed. After the first time, seeing and feeling the veneer will be enough to tell you if flattening is needed. Here's the trick.

Get a quarter ($.25) from between the cushions on your couch and place it on the veneer. Move it around the veneer and look for gaps between the veneer and the coin. If any place on the veneer shows more than 1/8" of gap under it, you'll need to flatten the veneer. Of course, this is just a rule of thumb. Some exceptionally brittle veneers will need to be flattened completely regardless of the gap.

Veneer Softeners 101
I've tried several types of softening solutions. Here's what I've found:

Fabric softener - I know there will be a large handful of readers who will say that they have used fabric softener to make veneer pliable. I won't argue this. Those folks are right. It will make veneer pliable but it will also leave a residue that can catastrophically affect the bonding of the material to the substrate.

Water - Indeed water will have a small and short-lived effect on a veneer's flexibility. It will not soften and condition the wood cells which is critical to getting the veneer flat without splitting. Additionally, if the water dries too fast, you can get splitting and cracking on the veneer sheet.

Homemade Softener - There's an age old recipe of consisting of 3 parts water, 2 parts yellow glue, 1 part vegetable glycerin, and 1 part denatured alcohol. This concoction will soften veneer but it's messy, hard to dry, and it will seal the wood cells which can have an effect on the wood's ability to accept a stain. Here's a tip. If you opt to use homemade veneer softener and find that it causes the veneer to stick to the absorbent paper, place a piece of fiberglass cloth between the veneer and the paper. Fiber glass cloth can be found at your local hardware store near the adhesives aisle.

Super Soft 2™ Veneer Softener - Despite its cheesy name, SS2 is by far, the most effective and user friendly veneer softener available. By temporarily plasticizing wood cells, veneers treated with Super-Soft 2 become easy to flatten and unbelievably flexible. It also does not affect the stain absorbing properties of the veneer.

Ultimately, it's the water in this product that makes the veneer soft and pliable. But there is another chemical in Super Soft which is extremely hygroscopic (it attracts moisture). This chemical remains in the veneer even after it feels dry. It is this remnant that keeps moisture in the veneer and allows the wood to remain soft for several days after the visible water content has evaporated. Check this out... if you get a drop of softener on your work bench and leave it there, the chemicals in SS2 will retain the water content and it won't evaporate for several days!
 
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jaap

Moderator
9 mrt 2008
5.051
1.682
Terkaple
www.woodworking.nl
@peterderooij, de tekst van jou link staat in mijn bericht en de link in mijn berichtje verwijst naar webshop waar je het kunt bestellen. De site is hier wel vaker genoemd, van joewoodworker, machtig interessant als je fineer wilt of iets met vacuum persen wilt gaan doen.


jaap
 

Leonardo

Nieuw lid
26 sep 2012
4
0
Hallo Jaap, Dank voor jouw bericht. Ik heb die site ook gezien en kan het daar bestellen, maar de shipping costs zijn belachelijk hoog! Daarom zoek ik naarstig naar een NEderlandse/EUropese leverancier. Maar tevergeefs.
Ik heb nu wel een Belgische fabrikant die fineer buizaam maakt door de vezels onzichtbaar te 'kneuzen'. Ik ga daar maar eens mee testen...

Groeten,[

LeonU


OTE=jaap;54715]Zag het afgelopen zomer ook staan in de winkel, maar had te weinig bagagemogelijkheden. Hier een link waar je het kunt bestellen, en allerlei handige andere spullen voor het werken met vacuum en hieronder een beschrijving van de verschillende middelen. Het is op basis van glycol, dus misschien lukt het ook met antivries??

jaap



Even the highest grade veneers can have mild to moderate rippling. Crotch and stump veneer almost always arrive with a fair amount of rippling or bubbling. This is typically caused by areas where there is a high density of wood cells which expand and contract at a different rate than areas where the density of wood cells is less.

Veneers that have very slight "bubbling" can be glued to a panel without flattening. The key is to lightly mist the top side of the veneer with veneer softener after it has been placed on the freshly glued substrate. If you do spritz the veneer face, it's a good idea to mist the balance veneer as well (even if it is not bubbly).

The Quarter Trick
There's an old trick that I learned from a craftsman in Jarrettsville, Maryland for determining whether you need to flatten a veneer before you work with it in a vacuum press. You'll only need to do this trick once to learn when flattening is needed. After the first time, seeing and feeling the veneer will be enough to tell you if flattening is needed. Here's the trick.

Get a quarter ($.25) from between the cushions on your couch and place it on the veneer. Move it around the veneer and look for gaps between the veneer and the coin. If any place on the veneer shows more than 1/8" of gap under it, you'll need to flatten the veneer. Of course, this is just a rule of thumb. Some exceptionally brittle veneers will need to be flattened completely regardless of the gap.

Veneer Softeners 101
I've tried several types of softening solutions. Here's what I've found:

Fabric softener - I know there will be a large handful of readers who will say that they have used fabric softener to make veneer pliable. I won't argue this. Those folks are right. It will make veneer pliable but it will also leave a residue that can catastrophically affect the bonding of the material to the substrate.

Water - Indeed water will have a small and short-lived effect on a veneer's flexibility. It will not soften and condition the wood cells which is critical to getting the veneer flat without splitting. Additionally, if the water dries too fast, you can get splitting and cracking on the veneer sheet.

Homemade Softener - There's an age old recipe of consisting of 3 parts water, 2 parts yellow glue, 1 part vegetable glycerin, and 1 part denatured alcohol. This concoction will soften veneer but it's messy, hard to dry, and it will seal the wood cells which can have an effect on the wood's ability to accept a stain. Here's a tip. If you opt to use homemade veneer softener and find that it causes the veneer to stick to the absorbent paper, place a piece of fiberglass cloth between the veneer and the paper. Fiber glass cloth can be found at your local hardware store near the adhesives aisle.

Super Soft 2™ Veneer Softener - Despite its cheesy name, SS2 is by far, the most effective and user friendly veneer softener available. By temporarily plasticizing wood cells, veneers treated with Super-Soft 2 become easy to flatten and unbelievably flexible. It also does not affect the stain absorbing properties of the veneer.

Ultimately, it's the water in this product that makes the veneer soft and pliable. But there is another chemical in Super Soft which is extremely hygroscopic (it attracts moisture). This chemical remains in the veneer even after it feels dry. It is this remnant that keeps moisture in the veneer and allows the wood to remain soft for several days after the visible water content has evaporated. Check this out... if you get a drop of softener on your work bench and leave it there, the chemicals in SS2 will retain the water content and it won't evaporate for several days![/QUOTE]
 

peterderooij

Actieve deelnemer
7 sep 2008
584
0
@peterderooij, de tekst van jou link staat in mijn bericht en de link in mijn berichtje verwijst naar webshop waar je het kunt bestellen[...]

Toen ik je originele bericht las stond de link er nog niet in. Vandaar mijn post.
 
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henkverhaar

Oud hout
20 jan 2011
4.839
892
Nijswiller
www.buroverhaar.nl
Ik zou experimenteren met een waterige oplossing van propanol, of eventueel butanol...
Ha, ze hebben het zelf over diethylene glycol monoethyl ether. Dat en eventueel wat wateroplosbare polymeren. Of zelfs iets als antivries. Ik denk dat er wel iets zelf samen te stellen valt...

Edit: uit het MSDS valt zelfs op te maken dat dit het voornaamste, of misschien wel enige bestanddeel is...

Valt onder de 'commerciele' categorie "Cellosolve" (meer in het bijzonder carbitol cellosolve. Wellicht kun je hier naar op zoek, of naar een verwante cellosolve - ze zullen het allemaal tot op zekere hoogte doen.
 
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Valentijn

Nieuw lid
5 jan 2013
14
0
Beste Henk,

Ik las je reactie in een post over fineerversoepelaar in 2012 (dit topic: http://www.woodworking.nl/showthread.php?6075-Verzachten-van-FINEER/page2)

Ik heb hetzelfde probleem als degene die dit topic startte, namelijk dat ik graag 'super soft 2' zou kopen, maar dat de verzendkosten ontzettend hoog zijn (voor twee flessen van een gallon betaal je 34,9 dollar per stuk bij Veneersupplies.com, en om dit te verzenden kosten het 104,90 dollar... !!).

Het hoofdbestanddeel schijnt Diethylene Glycol Monoethyl Ether (afgekort EGME te zijn). Ik heb net een aanvraag verstuurd naar Labshop.nl, om te kijken of ze dit kunnen leveren/wat het kost.

Uit je reactie kreeg ik het gevoel dat je misschien affiniteit met deze materie hebt. Mijn vraag is eigenlijk: zou het nodig zijn om pure EGME met water te verdunnen, en zo ja, welke verhouding zou dat ongeveer zijn?

In het volgende stuk op de site van Joe Woodworker staat dit (http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/flattening.htm):

Super Soft 2™ Veneer Softener - Despite its cheesy name, SS2 is by far, the most effective and user friendly veneer softener available. By temporarily plasticizing wood cells, veneers treated with Super-Soft 2 become easy to flatten and surprisingly flexible. Once dry this softener does not affect the stain absorbing properties of the veneer.Ultimately, it's the water in this product that makes the veneer soft and pliable. But there is another chemical in Super Soft which is extremely hygroscopic (it attracts moisture). This chemical remains in the veneer even after it feels dry. It is this remnant that keeps some moisture in the veneer and allows the wood to remain soft for several days after the visible water content has evaporated. Check this out... if you get a drop of softener on your work bench and leave it there, the chemicals in SS2 will retain the water content and it won't evaporate for several days!


Hieruit maak ik op het vooral het water is wat het fineer soepel en buigzaam maakt... dus er zal een bepaalde verhouding in het spel zijn.

Het gaat mij in deze toepassing vooral om het glad persen van fineer zonder dat ik er scheuren in krijg. Vooralsnog doe ik het altijd met alleen water, dan in de pers met kranten en verwisselen totdat ze droog zijn. Bij veel houtsoorten gaat dat goed, maar sommige scheuren helaas.

Bij voorbaat hartelijk dank voor je reactie! Ik maak er ook even een topic over aan...

Vriendelijke groet,

Valentijn de Vos
 

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